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sunyun

Legend Member
Points
0
Wow Markey, a whole lot more people die in car accidents every year than by overdose. Maybe should execute the C.E.O. of Ford or Holden? I used to work in a rehab and do you know how many recovering addicts blame dealers for their addiction? None. In fact there is a stronger link between childhood abuse and drug addiction than there is between obesity and diabetes. And in progressive countries like Portugal and Holland who focus on harm minimisation rather than criminalising those with the disease of addiction there are far fewer drug related deaths and crime than here or America. Everyone deserves to be treated with compassion, no matter whether they are an addict or a couple of boys who did something egregiously stupid at an age when they didn't fully appreciate the consequences of their actions (there are in fact studies that show that the ability to do so isn't fully developed until about 25). And for those who bleat that they knew the death penalty applies in Indonesia, well so did the AFP and instead of waiting for them to arrive back in Australia chose instead to tip off the Indo police. If we are going to say anyone in this whole sorry saga has blood on their hands it is them.


I don't have problems with addicts. I have problems with dealers.

These two were not a 'couple of boys who did something egregiously stupid', they were on their third drug run - they were professional drug dealers.

The AFP were doing their job - to work with other Police forces around the world to stop the traffic of drugs.

If the two had not been in the business of smuggling drugs - and involving others to do so (Bali Nine ), then they would not have been caught and faced the death penalty. They chose - and in life, people don't always get to run to mummy and say, "I didn't know, it wasn't my fault, I was too young, I was led astray, I thought it was only talcum powder, ...." and society says, "OK, don't be a bad boy again, and we'll forget the other two times you did this run, and the others you roped into it - who are also now in prison - and we'll smack your wrist and let you go" .

In the real world outside nanny state Oz, people are judged by their actions, and live or die accordingly.

I wonder what the mums of all the drug addicts think of the deaths of two dealers ?

Watching their children waste away day after day, lying, stealing, robbing to pay more like these two for their daily dose must be as bad as waiting for your son to be shot by the state for bringing those drugs to someone else's son.

I think we should be much more focussed on the 8,000 dead in Nepal than on two drug smugglers in Bali.
 

scarlett lee

Gold Member
Points
0
I wish more people could show this same sort of empathy toward people.:)
Exactly Max. Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran were far from being heroes, nor for a moment do I suggest they should be treated as such. What they were was sons and brothers and husbands and lovers. Human and fallible. Repentant and rehabilitated. And all the haters out there should hope if they were ever unfortunate enough to find themselves in a similar situation that they would be able to show half the dignity these two did, singing Amazing Grace and choosing to look their executioners in the face, unblindfolded.
No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.
 
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sparky

Legend Member
Points
47
Do gooders everywhere saying how good these two scum were and that they were rehabilitated, they got what they deserved they didn't care one bit about the peoples lives they were going to destroy with the drugs they went to pick up

The AFP did well by doing it this way because if they had waited til they got back to Australia to anything about it they would have got a slap on the wrist and become a financial burden to the innocent tax payer

I personally would have happily bought the bullets used to remove these scum I hope their lives lost serves as a warning to others to not try to play with the laws in these countries by importing drugs to ruin innocent lives

Three cheers theyre gone at last
 

Buk

Diamond Member
Points
0
God has nothing to do with it. Besides, only one of them "found God" in there. Whether he truly did find religion or it was just a ploy to make him look better doesn't matter. What matters is the 10 years he's already served in an Indonesian prison - that's enough to make anyone sorry, I bet you that given a second chance, neither of them would even think about trafficking heroin again.
Totally agree with you Max. Since they'd always planned to shoot them, they should've had the trial and execution all done within the year but to let them and the circus linger for 10 long years made no sense, in my opinion and was a poorly executed (no pun intended) process of retribution.
 

sparky

Legend Member
Points
47
I wish there was a "dislike" button.

I cant see how people can condone the actions of these two scum

Go ahead and dislike that's cool but what if one of yours took the drugs they were trying to bring back if they had got away with it and ODed would you be so sympathetic to them both then ?
I agree help the addicts but give the importers and dealers the full force of the law and that is what they got and deserved
Not everywhere is a nanny state run by dogooders like our great country
 

sparky

Legend Member
Points
47
Totally agree with you Max. Since they'd always planned to shoot them, they should've had the trial and execution all done within the year but to let them and the circus linger for 10 long years made no sense, in my opinion and was a poorly executed (no pun intended) process of retribution.

I agree but part of the extra time taken was due to appeals too
 

Max Cherry

At your service
Gold Member
Points
0
I cant see how people can condone the actions of these two scum

Go ahead and dislike that's cool but what if one of yours took the drugs they were trying to bring back if they had got away with it and ODed would you be so sympathetic to them both then ?
I agree help the addicts but give the importers and dealers the full force of the law and that is what they got and deserved
Not everywhere is a nanny state run by dogooders like our great country

Unfortunately I have known people who have passed away as a result of overdosing, but that doesn't make me mad at the people they bought the drugs from.

I also know people who have died from or currently have cancer caused by smoking, but I don't get mad at the tobacco companies. I know others who have had their lives ruined by their addiction to alcohol, but don't blame the companies selling it.
 

Buk

Diamond Member
Points
0
I cant see how people can condone the actions of these two scum

Go ahead and dislike that's cool but what if one of yours took the drugs they were trying to bring back if they had got away with it and ODed would you be so sympathetic to them both then ?
I agree help the addicts but give the importers and dealers the full force of the law and that is what they got and deserved
Not everywhere is a nanny state run by dogooders like our great country
I definitely don't condone the actions of these two, that's not my argument and I don't condone the action of execution, unless their names were Milat or Birnie...but that's a different story.
 

scarlett lee

Gold Member
Points
0
Maybe do a little reading into the "war on drugs" first. You'll notice that drug use has increased, prison populations have exploded, and the number of addicts caught in that vicious cycle of prison and addiction has increased. It clearly isn't working. Like, not even a little bit.
Here's a good place for most people to start Max, or for a more concise version which focuses more on the futility of declaring a 'war' on drugs (which let's face it has been about as successful as the 'war' on poverty or the 'war' on terrorism), check out the You Tube video of Johann Hari's interview on Democracy Now:
The Likely Cause of Addiction Has Been Discovered, and It Is Not What You Think
It is now one hundred years since drugs were first banned -- and all through this long century of waging war on drugs, we have been told a story about addiction by our teachers and by our governments. This story is so deeply ingrained in our minds that we take it for granted. It seems obvious. It seems manifestly true. Until I set off three and a half years ago on a 30,000-mile journey for my new book, Chasing The Scream: The First And Last Days of the War on Drugs, to figure out what is really driving the drug war, I believed it too. But what I learned on the road is that almost everything we have been told about addiction is wrong -- and there is a very different story waiting for us, if only we are ready to hear it.
If we truly absorb this new story, we will have to change a lot more than the drug war. We will have to change ourselves.
I learned it from an extraordinary mixture of people I met on my travels. From the surviving friends of Billie Holiday, who helped me to learn how the founder of the war on drugs stalked and helped to kill her. From a Jewish doctor who was smuggled out of the Budapest ghetto as a baby, only to unlock the secrets of addiction as a grown man. From a transsexual crack dealer in Brooklyn who was conceived when his mother, a crack-addict, was raped by his father, an NYPD officer. From a man who was kept at the bottom of a well for two years by a torturing dictatorship, only to emerge to be elected President of Uruguay and to begin the last days of the war on drugs.
I had a quite personal reason to set out for these answers. One of my earliest memories as a kid is trying to wake up one of my relatives, and not being able to. Ever since then, I have been turning over the essential mystery of addiction in my mind -- what causes some people to become fixated on a drug or a behavior until they can't stop? How do we help those people to come back to us? As I got older, another of my close relatives developed a cocaine addiction, and I fell into a relationship with a heroin addict. I guess addiction felt like home to me.
If you had asked me what causes drug addiction at the start, I would have looked at you as if you were an idiot, and said: "Drugs. Duh." It's not difficult to grasp. I thought I had seen it in my own life. We can all explain it. Imagine if you and I and the next twenty people to pass us on the street take a really potent drug for twenty days. There are strong chemical hooks in these drugs, so if we stopped on day twenty-one, our bodies would need the chemical. We would have a ferocious craving. We would be addicted. That's what addiction means.
One of the ways this theory was first established is through rat experiments -- ones that were injected into the American psyche in the 1980s, in a famous advert by the Partnership for a Drug-Free America. You may remember it. The experiment is simple. Put a rat in a cage, alone, with two water bottles. One is just water. The other is water laced with heroin or cocaine. Almost every time you run this experiment, the rat will become obsessed with the drugged water, and keep coming back for more and more, until it kills itself.
The advert explains: "Only one drug is so addictive, nine out of ten laboratory rats will use it. And use it. And use it. Until dead. It's called cocaine. And it can do the same thing to you."
But in the 1970s, a professor of Psychology in Vancouver called Bruce Alexandernoticed something odd about this experiment. The rat is put in the cage all alone. It has nothing to do but take the drugs. What would happen, he wondered, if we tried this differently? So Professor Alexander built Rat Park. It is a lush cage where the rats would have colored balls and the best rat-food and tunnels to scamper down and plenty of friends: everything a rat about town could want. What, Alexander wanted to know, will happen then?
In Rat Park, all the rats obviously tried both water bottles, because they didn't know what was in them. But what happened next was startling.
The rats with good lives didn't like the drugged water. They mostly shunned it, consuming less than a quarter of the drugs the isolated rats used. None of them died. While all the rats who were alone and unhappy became heavy users, none of the rats who had a happy environment did.
At first, I thought this was merely a quirk of rats, until I discovered that there was -- at the same time as the Rat Park experiment -- a helpful human equivalent taking place. It was called the Vietnam War. Time magazine reported using heroin was "as common as chewing gum" among U.S. soldiers, and there is solid evidence to back this up: some 20 percent of U.S. soldiers had become addicted to heroin there, according to a study published in the Archives of General Psychiatry. Many people were understandably terrified; they believed a huge number of addicts were about to head home when the war ended.
But in fact some 95 percent of the addicted soldiers -- according to the same study -- simply stopped. Very few had rehab. They shifted from a terrifying cage back to a pleasant one, so didn't want the drug any more.
Professor Alexander argues this discovery is a profound challenge both to the right-wing view that addiction is a moral failing caused by too much hedonistic partying, and the liberal view that addiction is a disease taking place in a chemically hijacked brain. In fact, he argues, addiction is an adaptation. It's not you. It's your cage.
After the first phase of Rat Park, Professor Alexander then took this test further. He reran the early experiments, where the rats were left alone, and became compulsive users of the drug. He let them use for fifty-seven days -- if anything can hook you, it's that. Then he took them out of isolation, and placed them in Rat Park. He wanted to know, if you fall into that state of addiction, is your brain hijacked, so you can't recover? Do the drugs take you over? What happened is -- again -- striking. The rats seemed to have a few twitches of withdrawal, but they soon stopped their heavy use, and went back to having a normal life. The good cage saved them. (The full references to all the studies I am discussing are in the book.)
When I first learned about this, I was puzzled. How can this be? This new theory is such a radical assault on what we have been told that it felt like it could not be true. But the more scientists I interviewed, and the more I looked at their studies, the more I discovered things that don't seem to make sense -- unless you take account of this new approach.
Here's one example of an experiment that is happening all around you, and may well happen to you one day. If you get run over today and you break your hip, you will probably be given diamorphine, the medical name for heroin. In the hospital around you, there will be plenty of people also given heroin for long periods, for pain relief. The heroin you will get from the doctor will have a much higher purity and potency than the heroin being used by street-addicts, who have to buy from criminals who adulterate it. So if the old theory of addiction is right -- it's the drugs that cause it; they make your body need them -- then it's obvious what should happen. Loads of people should leave the hospital and try to score smack on the streets to meet their habit.
But here's the strange thing: It virtually never happens. As the Canadian doctor Gabor Mate was the first to explain to me, medical users just stop, despite months of use. The same drug, used for the same length of time, turns street-users into desperate addicts and leaves medical patients unaffected.
If you still believe -- as I used to -- that addiction is caused by chemical hooks, this makes no sense. But if you believe Bruce Alexander's theory, the picture falls into place. The street-addict is like the rats in the first cage, isolated, alone, with only one source of solace to turn to. The medical patient is like the rats in the second cage. She is going home to a life where she is surrounded by the people she loves. The drug is the same, but the environment is different.
This gives us an insight that goes much deeper than the need to understand addicts. Professor Peter Cohen argues that human beings have a deep need to bond and form connections. It's how we get our satisfaction. If we can't connect with each other, we will connect with anything we can find -- the whirr of a roulette wheel or the prick of a syringe. He says we should stop talking about 'addiction' altogether, and instead call it 'bonding.' A heroin addict has bonded with heroin because she couldn't bond as fully with anything else.
So the opposite of addiction is not sobriety. It is human connection.
When I learned all this, I found it slowly persuading me, but I still couldn't shake off a nagging doubt. Are these scientists saying chemical hooks make no difference? It was explained to me -- you can become addicted to gambling, and nobody thinks you inject a pack of cards into your veins. You can have all the addiction, and none of the chemical hooks. I went to a Gamblers' Anonymous meeting in Las Vegas (with the permission of everyone present, who knew I was there to observe) and they were as plainly addicted as the cocaine and heroin addicts I have known in my life. Yet there are no chemical hooks on a craps table.
But still, surely, I asked, there is some role for the chemicals? It turns out there is an experiment which gives us the answer to this in quite precise terms, which I learned about in Richard DeGrandpre's book The Cult of Pharmacology.
Everyone agrees cigarette smoking is one of the most addictive processes around. The chemical hooks in tobacco come from a drug inside it called nicotine. So when nicotine patches were developed in the early 1990s, there was a huge surge of optimism -- cigarette smokers could get all of their chemical hooks, without the other filthy (and deadly) effects of cigarette smoking. They would be freed.
But the Office of the Surgeon General has found that just 17.7 percent of cigarette smokers are able to stop using nicotine patches. That's not nothing. If the chemicals drive 17.7 percent of addiction, as this shows, that's still millions of lives ruined globally. But what it reveals again is that the story we have been taught about The Cause of Addiction lying with chemical hooks is, in fact, real, but only a minor part of a much bigger picture.
This has huge implications for the one-hundred-year-old war on drugs. This massive war -- which, as I saw, kills people from the malls of Mexico to the streets of Liverpool -- is based on the claim that we need to physically eradicate a whole array of chemicals because they hijack people's brains and cause addiction. But if drugs aren't the driver of addiction -- if, in fact, it is disconnection that drives addiction -- then this makes no sense.
Ironically, the war on drugs actually increases all those larger drivers of addiction. For example, I went to a prison in Arizona -- 'Tent City' -- where inmates are detained in tiny stone isolation cages ('The Hole') for weeks and weeks on end to punish them for drug use. It is as close to a human recreation of the cages that guaranteed deadly addiction in rats as I can imagine. And when those prisoners get out, they will be unemployable because of their criminal record -- guaranteeing they with be cut off even more. I watched this playing out in the human stories I met across the world.
There is an alternative. You can build a system that is designed to help drug addicts to reconnect with the world -- and so leave behind their addictions.
This isn't theoretical. It is happening. I have seen it. Nearly fifteen years ago, Portugal had one of the worst drug problems in Europe, with 1 percent of the population addicted to heroin. They had tried a drug war, and the problem just kept getting worse. So they decided to do something radically different. They resolved to decriminalize all drugs, and transfer all the money they used to spend on arresting and jailing drug addicts, and spend it instead on reconnecting them -- to their own feelings, and to the wider society. The most crucial step is to get them secure housing, and subsidized jobs so they have a purpose in life, and something to get out of bed for. I watched as they are helped, in warm and welcoming clinics, to learn how to reconnect with their feelings, after years of trauma and stunning them into silence with drugs.
One example I learned about was a group of addicts who were given a loan to set up a removals firm. Suddenly, they were a group, all bonded to each other, and to the society, and responsible for each other's care.
The results of all this are now in. An independent study by the British Journal of Criminology found that since total decriminalization, addiction has fallen, and injecting drug use is down by 50 percent. I'll repeat that: injecting drug use is down by 50 percent. Decriminalization has been such a manifest success that very few people in Portugal want to go back to the old system. The main campaigner against the decriminalization back in 2000 was Joao Figueira, the country's top drug cop. He offered all the dire warnings that we would expect from the Daily Mail or Fox News. But when we sat together in Lisbon, he told me that everything he predicted had not come to pass -- and he now hopes the whole world will follow Portugal's example.
This isn't only relevant to the addicts I love. It is relevant to all of us, because it forces us to think differently about ourselves. Human beings are bonding animals. We need to connect and love. The wisest sentence of the twentieth century was E.M. Forster's -- "only connect." But we have created an environment and a culture that cut us off from connection, or offer only the parody of it offered by the Internet. The rise of addiction is a symptom of a deeper sickness in the way we live -- constantly directing our gaze towards the next shiny object we should buy, rather than the human beings all around us.
The writer George Monbiot has called this "the age of loneliness." We have created human societies where it is easier for people to become cut off from all human connections than ever before. Bruce Alexander -- the creator of Rat Park -- told me that for too long, we have talked exclusively about individual recovery from addiction. We need now to talk about social recovery -- how we all recover, together, from the sickness of isolation that is sinking on us like a thick fog.
But this new evidence isn't just a challenge to us politically. It doesn't just force us to change our minds. It forces us to change our hearts.
Loving an addict is really hard. When I looked at the addicts I love, it was always tempting to follow the tough love advice doled out by reality shows like Intervention -- tell the addict to shape up, or cut them off. Their message is that an addict who won't stop should be shunned. It's the logic of the drug war, imported into our private lives. But in fact, I learned, that will only deepen their addiction -- and you may lose them altogether. I came home determined to tie the addicts in my life closer to me than ever -- to let them know I love them unconditionally, whether they stop, or whether they can't.
When I returned from my long journey, I looked at my ex-boyfriend, in withdrawal, trembling on my spare bed, and I thought about him differently. For a century now, we have been singing war songs about addicts. It occurred to me as I wiped his brow, we should have been singing love songs to them all along.


Chasing the Scream: The First and Last Days of the War on Drugs
by Johann Hari
 
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Parsival

Silver Member
Points
0
If anyone thinks the execution of these drug trafficers was about crime, punishment and deterrence and will make a jot of difference to drug trafficking and abuse in Indonesia or Australia is being naive.

It is about domestic Indonesian politics. Human tragedy played out large for the primary benefit of the masses of poor Indonesians who voted Widodo in, partly on a "get tough on drugs mandate".

All the angst, condemnation and hand ringing in Australia right now for and against the executions obscures the following reality. Australia's approach to drugs has failed as has and will the hairy chested approach of Indonesia. Some more intelligent thinking and debate is required in both counties to make a real impact on the drugs scourge.
 

bushseeker

Foundation Member
Points
0
Save your sympathy... theres plenty of real genuine people right here in perth that need it.
a couple of weeks ago I had to help a friend who had no where else to go but sleep on the streets in rocking ham.
I dropped everything when I got her reverse charge call and made the long treck to north bunbury
gave her shelter and food and bought her a plane ticket to Sydney where she had family support.
you people ignoring such people and saving your compassion for brutes and scum who originate from many thousands of km away make me shake my head .
 

Buk

Diamond Member
Points
0
Save your sympathy... theres plenty of real genuine people right here in perth that need it.
a couple of weeks ago I had to help a friend who had no where else to go but sleep on the streets in rocking ham.
I dropped everything when I got her reverse charge call and made the long treck to north bunbury
gave her shelter and food and bought her a plane ticket to Sydney where she had family support.
you people ignoring such people and saving your compassion for brutes and scum who originate from many thousands of km away make me shake my head .
Shake...Rattle...and Roll!
 

smarquin

Diamond Member
Points
24
Don't blame the current Indonesian government for the execution. Death penalty in Indonesia has been there even before the guys was born (1975).

Every time I walk through Asian countries with death penalty signs at the Airport and Immigration card warnings declaration, I get shiver in my body and get paranoid and I never even seen or touch drugs. So for these drug traffickers, they are a different kind.

Its very lucky for the other Bali 9 to get life sentence or less. They were not forced to take the drugs, they are willing participant, out for make some money. Its a cop out to blame it on the 2 ring leaders. Imagine the ring leader is in Australia and told the mule to bring drugs, is that mean the mule can blame the ring leaders in Australia as their defence in court and plea for lighter sentence ?
 

Zeus

Patron Saint of Werewolves
Diamond Member
Points
0
If you don't like the laws of a country - don't go there.
If you do go there - don't break those laws.
If you do break the laws - face the consequences.

End of story.
Have absolutely no sympathy for those 2 idiots who have now suffered an acute case of lead poisoning.
 

honestman

Gold Member
Points
0
I was born Indonesian. Raised through a middle class family (now the "middle-poor"). I clearly remembered that next door to our 2-storey is a big barrier / fence to the slums. Got caught a lot in fights from these kids (me back then) and lot in schools too. There was not a single drug education awareness program at all nor did I ever started knowing what it is back then in the late 80s.

However, as an adult looking back - I will simplify this in one life experience statement - corruption is ubiqutious and never sleeps throughout our current monetary-market system. Name any one developed nations and it's there. Not obvious enough? Just live in one (or a few) and you'll see. I believe this "War-on-Drugs" is just one side effect of this economic system we amply shaped ourselves.

Yes I’d be inclined to be harsh at my own birthplace, but unfortunately - the entire socio-political fabric in Indonesia are simply just that - immoral, uncivilised and uneducated. And yet the Australian Government shits me to no end that we are spending $600 Million back to supporting these system as an “aid”? Just one proof so far that corruption is there all over the globe.

The Likely Cause of Addiction Has Been Discovered, and It Is Not What You Think


Chasing the Scream: The First and Last Days of the War on Drugs
by Johann Hari


Anyway, I'm very glad to see the strong sharing of leniency, and to foresee value of compassion to addicts as per to The Rat Park experiments kindly put above as point of reference.

So much that it does it reminds me of what Dr. Gabor Mate findings that there is no such thing as addiction - a passage from Zeitgeist’s moving forward first section (Human Nature) - the documentary (of a lifetime) I've watched many times over that answers a LOT of questions.


IMO - I am a hardline neutral in any given political views yet I do not believe in God or miracles. But I am believer and a supporter of maintaining and supporting a rewarding life, even if life in biological and its’ social context terms are all chaotic. But the important thing here is to keep the opportunities open for contribution and leniency through empathy, not simply by termination & dismissal. I would perhaps only allow some sort of support towards ending of life - abortion and Euthanasia in particular so long as the decision RESTS SOLELY on the individuals to choose, not by others to do so by force.

For addiction - I believe recovery through motivational environment could very well be the answer. It’s just too bad not many of us don’t see things in lateral perspective.
 

Nomansland

Gold Member
Points
0
This is one of the more intelligent discussions on the Bali Duo that I have read. I have mixed feeling about the whole thing. I admire them for meeting their end as men, with dignity and courage. I despise them for trafficking in the misery of others. I respect Indonesia's right to carry out its laws but despair at the corruption of their system. There are for me many culpable players and many shades of gray in this situation. Our world is not simple and those who believe in simple solutions are simple. Connection has always been important and is becoming increasingly so. I have always loved John Donne words they are as true now as they were in the 1600s when he wrote them. The two island countries should not forget this.
Scarlett thank you for your informed input on addiction. I had read of addictive personalities but it seems its more like addictive environments. W.A.has had one of the most successful campaigns in the world against a drug injection system - nicotine and smoking. There are lessons to be learned there. As far as decriminalization vs prohibition goes the example of Portugal and the time of Prohibition in the US are clear examples that prohibition doesn't work. Organized crime is in it for the money - make it legal and the price drops - there is no incentive. Perhaps there war on drugs is just to lucrative for a number of groups to give it up. This is a bit rambling and confused but I'm still sorting it out - with help from the forum.
 
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