the controversy about circumcision

[Janet]

I found a discussion about circumcision on this site and was somewhat surprised about some of the contributions/ replies to the topic.
No matter what the personal preference of each women might be, it has to be said that circumcision is a religious ritual entirely, namely the Jewish and the Moslem Religion. Because of the strong Jewish influence in the US most Americans are circumcised, besides all the men in these many countries dominated by either Jewish or by Moslem religion, i.e the Middle East etc. On the other side there are many parts of the world where circumcision remains limited to members of these two religions only. Means, in these countries, dominated by Christian culture, i.e. all of Europe, Latin and South America, Canada etc. most men are NOT circumcised. (The rate of circumcision in the US is declining for several years due to its controversies.)
There is absolutely NO infection risk for men with foreskin, as long normal hygiene is practiced. Even with a (undesirable) lack of hygiene, it remains extremely rare to develop an infection due to penile foreskin. It is an absolute MYTH that there is any correlation between a higher infection risk and uncircumcised foreskin!
It is established knowledge that circumcision alters the epithelium of the glans over time. The epithelium “tries” out and “thickens” over time, which results in lesser sensitivity, according to the common view. The advantage MIGHT be the capability of performing longer, according to SOME views. An uncircumcised penis remains more sensitive due to a moist, less “thickened” epithelium of the glans. Nevertheless, there is no established correlation between a uncircumcised foreskin and the inability of longer performance! Finally it all comes down to the individual sexuality of a men, including his trust in his masculinity, his self confidence, his sexual experience and his physiological pre-disposition and “conditioning”, (i.e. general, “mind –guided” control over sexual arousal, impulsivity etc.).
If NOT circumcised the major problem which can occur in a low percentage of men is discomfort or pain during intercourse or oral sex, if the foreskin is too tight and cannot be moved back freely therefore. A medically indicated surgery by an Urologist appears the best intervention to take then.

 

[Madam Jacqui]

I Love your post about circumcision.Well done. xxxxx

 

[viper]

Yeh its still a hot spot. I don`t know many people that are circumcised but if so its usually without there choice as a child. I think its like religion let the child get old enough to decide for themselves.

 

[1moretime]

circumcision = genital mutilation

 

[WRXXR]

Using that logic, the same could be said for everyone with a piercing downstairs or on their nipple's...

I don't believe in religion (for those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't, no explanation can be given. Goes both way's ) but if i have a son, he will be circumcised. I've had the snip. I don't hate my parents, i dont have any issues using it and nor do i have any psychological problems harboring deep inside.

NON of us have any right to judge parent's if they choose to snip or not to snip. We must show respect and leave them to make their own balanced and unbiased opinion.

 

[Rochelle]

Hi Janet,
like your post. You sound like you know what you are talking about. I sent a post regarding the topic earlier (guess you read it with all the other ones). I just want to ask if you know more about the risk of infection and/or nasty viruses (apparently living under the foreskin) for the female. I wonder if it is a myth as well that unprotected sexual intercourse with circumcised males is less dangerous for the female (in terms of infections and especially the connection with cervical cancer) than with not circumcised males. What do you think?
Thanks
R.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[Alecia the Foxx]

I like your post Janet, and although it is not an issue that I feel strongly about, I fail to see why somebody would have a baby, and then start chopping bits off the baby. :

 

[1moretime]

@WRXXR

I can see that you have no issues with your parents decision to have you circumcised and I know that many men feel the same way as you. But that doesn't change the fact that this is an unnecessary procedure with no proven health benefits, that should not be inflicted upon any male without their consent.

As it's done at the stage of infancy, most cut blokes have no basis upon which to compare sexual pleasure with a foreskin vs without a foreskin. There are very few non-cut men who, when presented with the facts, would choose to be circumcised as an adult. However, those who do usually report a loss of sensation and decreased pleasure from sex. Sounds like a pretty horrible thing to have happen to you.

As for judging the parents - that's exactly the same as saying that none of us have the right to judge a parent who tattoos their child at the stage of infancy. It's a painful, permanent process that the child has no decision over. It's completely the parents choice, but I can tell you that I'd absolutely reserve my right to judge them and think they're terrible parents.

 

[Sheldon Thervasa]

Hi, I like this topic a lot as I feel it's important for people to be informed. Janet, thanks for your post however you will find that as you delve deeper into regional areas of places such as, for example, right here in Australia, male-circumcision IS actually often a matter of tradition and culture rather than "...a religious ritual entirely" as you posted. Many Australian parents up until the late 1970s were more likely to choose circumcision as a cultural trend occurring in largely Christian or secular communities (not only in Jewish or Moslem ones.) One trend historically in, for example, the wheat-belt areas of Victoria and NSW was, up until the mid 1960s, to circumcise only the FIRST son, but not the others. This curious non-religious trend occurred primarily in secular (and sometimes Christian) communities and has been shown to be completed UNRELATED to religious practices but simply down to a matter of "fashion." Yes, medical practices are also prey to 'trends' and 'fashion-movements' (for example, whether or not to remove children's tonsils as a response to persistent colds and flus/tonsilitis and such continues to be a practise which also goes in and out of fashion.) Birth-plan trends are another area anthropologically which also are proven to fluctuate in response to factors such as the socio-economic environment's changes (eg home-births saw a re-surgence in popularity around the time of the Global Economic Crisis, reflecting not only a shift in the public's consciousness around the pros and cons of home-births but a desire to, put simply, save money, by staying home and simply paying a midwife to sit in, instead of forking out huge hospital bills for a hospital birth.)
As far as circumcision then, we can see that the matter is as much if not more about traditions within cultural and demographic trends as religion.
Rochelle, regarding your questions about whether or not there is greater risk of infection and/or cervical cancer-risk for women if they sleep with uncircumcised men, there is no substantial medical proof that this is the case, so ladies, feel free to go boldly into this zone providing your partner of course has shown he is disease-free in general and providing you and your partner have agreed upon sexual-monogamy and have BOTH firstly undergone the necessary STI checks (and covered-off birth control matters) before leaping into the realm of natural-sex.
Finally, in my experience, quite honestly, in comparing the sexual-intercourse 'performance-longevity' of circumcised men with those whom are UNcircumcised, yes, uncircumcised men DO orgasm faster and have more intense responses to oral sex and vaginal intercourse than circumcised guys.
That said, I personally enjoy sex equally with both kinds of guy, be they cut or uncut. However were I a guy, I would hope to be one of the lucky UNcircumcised men in terms of greater sensitivity.
At the end of the day, I am of the school of thought which condemns all forms of cutting the male or female genitalia as "genital mutilation" and am thrilled with the fact that such practices are being eliminated worldwide, bit by bit, as people's awareness of the pros and cons increases. Knowledge is power, so let's empower both sides of the debate for and against circumcision with information which is as up to date as possible. Last of all, as the great French philosopher Voltaire said, "I may disagree with everything you say, but I will defend to the death your RIGHT to say it." So, let's carry on with discussing any topic, at length, from every possible angle...In fact let's do it in a spa with a bottle of bubbly at Langtrees in Perth and chat into the wee hours before getting down to OTHER 'serious' issues...LOL...Have a great weekend everyone and Stay Radical. Love, Sheldon. x

 

[Hardwood]

My post was duplicated - See my post above.

 

[Hardwood]

:nono::nono: Janet, your post was the most ill-informed, baseless post I have ever read. Your supposed facts were complete cr@p and some of your logic borders on insanity.

According to WIKI answers there are about 3 million Jews living in America which has a total population of over 350 million people. You suggest that .."Because of the strong Jewish influence in the US most Americans are circumcised,"

To suggest that the Jews who comprise less than 1% of the US population, has any influence on whether the remaining 99% of the population decide to get their boys circumcised or not, is plain idiotic. :angry1::angry1:

You go on to say..."Yes, medical practices are also prey to 'trends' and 'fashion-movements" Contemporary medicine applies health science, biomedical research, and medical technology to diagnose and treat injury and disease, typically through medication, surgery, or some other form of therapy. Furthermore, in most countries, it is a legal requirement for a medical doctor to be licensed or registered. In general, this entails a medical degree from a university and accreditation by a medical board or an equivalent national organization, which may ask the applicant to pass exams. This restricts the considerable legal authority of the medical profession to physicians that are trained and qualified by national standards. It is also intended as an assurance to patients and as a safeguard against charlatans that practice inadequate medicine for personal gain.
Medical practice does not follow trends or fashion movements. :nono::nono:

You continue by saying..."There is absolutely NO infection risk for men with foreskin" - Did you just make this up as you were writing?????
According to The Australian Academy of Pediatrics and The Australian Academy of Family Physicians - who probably know a bit more than you do about the subject, circumcision does offer some benefit in preventing urinary tract infections in infants. Circumcision also offers some benefit in preventing penile cancer in adult men. However, this disease is very rare in all men, whether or not they have been circumcised. Circumcision may reduce the risk of sexually transmitted diseases. Study results are mixed about whether circumcision may help reduce the risk of cervical cancer in female sex partners, and whether it helps prevent certain problems with the penis, such as infections and unwanted swelling. Some studies show that keeping the penis clean can help prevent these problems just as well as circumcision.

And at this point let me add that while I was in the army and we were doing field operations where there was a lack of water for a few days, almost every single guy who was not circumcised developed some sort of infection as (no fault of his own) he was not able to properly wash everyday and keep his penis clean. None of the guys who were circumcised developed these problems.

Furthermore, let me suggest that you have a read of "How does male circumcision protect against HIV infection?" which can be found at circumcision This report is from Robert Szabo, medical resident and Roger V Short, professor Faculty of Medicine, Monash University, and theDepartment of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, University of Melbourne, Royal Women's Hospital, 132 Grattan Street, Melbourne 3053, Australia.

Once again, I would suggest that these people base their findings on research and not trends or fashion movements.

I could carry on all day about all the bullsh*t that has been written in many of the posts in this thread but I fear I would simply be wasting my time.

If you are going to quote factual information, make sure it is correct.

:angry4::angry4::angry4::angry4::angry4::angry4::angry4::angry4:

 

[Rochelle]

This topic really turns into a controvery......good way to learn.
Thanks Sheldon for taking the time and posting an answer to my question. I have to admit that I haven't done any research into the topic myself. Questions started to pop up when the gynaecologists I have been to over the years (three different countries) started to point out that there might be a higher risk of infection for the female when the partner in uncircumcised.
Hardwood thanks for your post. It is good to hear a detailed (and obviously educated) opinion from a man as well. At the end of the day cicrumcision effects you guys far more than it effects us.
R.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[Janet]

Seems someone became very upset about this post, on a personal level possibly? Where dos all this 'palpable anger' anger come from?
However, circumcision always was and is a primarily religious ritual. There also was influence by Muslims and Christians. The average population in the US or in Australia etc. copied this practice. They were suggested that it is more hygienic and prevents from diverse infections, i.e. urinary tract infections or STD's etc.
This all was and will never been confirmed. This are miss-conceptions. If someone practices common genital hygiene there absolutely is no higher risk for any infection or penile cancer. Physicians, Researchers and all other Professionals of the Scientific OR Medical Community are also subject to their own religion, upbringings, believe-and value systems! And yes, similarly as in medias, Professionals are influenced by 'trends' within their community, because they are simply humans as well and many things in Science, Medicine and other disciplines are NOT confirmed. People who believe in statistics are naive! That being said by someone as myself who is an INSIDER of the "Science Business", by education and by profession. (Unfortunately I do not have enough time to research the exact percentage of Muslims or Jews within the US population, but is simple is not relevant). While circumcision has ABSOLUTELY NO ADVANTAGE for preventing infections, if common genital hygiene is practiced it certainly has an influence on the sensitivity of the glans. But of course, this also is not confirmed by any scientific research and probable will never be, as most things in Science!

 

[Jazzmine]

circumcision = genital mutilation

I agree with you 100%!

 

[Farm Boy]

I agree with you 100%!

I most Violent and irrational disagree completing intolerant of your view and Feel Compelled to rush down and frighten the life out of all LT WLs with my genital mutilation.

 

[Farm Boy]

I agree with you 100%!

I most Violent and irrational disagree completing intolerant of your view and Feel Compelled to rush down and frighten the life out of all LT WLs with my genital mutilation.

 

[Happy2]

I too am mutilated and personally happy for it The only downside is
My father told me when he first saw me I had the potential to be a full on 3incher like him. But the the circumcising doc was
a vindictive mongrel and lopped off more than he should

 

[homer]

If NOT circumcised the major problem which can occur in a low percentage of men is discomfort or pain during intercourse or oral sex, if the foreskin is too tight and cannot be moved back freely therefore. A medically indicated surgery by an Urologist appears the best intervention to take then.

*Phew* Luckily I am not in that low percentage...all i felt was pleasure all the way, ho ho ho...be it intercourse or oral sex...i love my 4skin..it's my little brother's next of kin...be sorry to see it go...if it ain't broken don't fix it, i say.

 

[Happy2]

And in this cold weather Does it act like a warm blanket Keeping everything warm and raring to go?

 

[SorchaA]

As a trans women I wish that i was not circumcised as that would give me more material for the doctor to play with so he can make my vagina.

Ashley

 

[Jazzmine]

I most Violent and irrational disagree completing intolerant of your view and Feel Compelled to rush down and frighten the life out of all LT WLs with my genital mutilation.

Oh I was not meaning that they are mutated! Just that the idea of doing such a thing is mutilation (personal opinion). I don't discriminate They still work just as fine haha

 

[Gentleman]

Oh I was not meaning that they are mutated! Just that the idea of doing such a thing is mutilation (personal opinion). I don't discriminate They still work just as fine haha

Jazzmine you better check mine to make sure it's not mutilated and that it works ok.

 

[Jazzmine]

Jazzmine you better check mine to make sure it's not mutilated and that it works ok.

Hahahaha grace us with your presence soon Gentleman!?

 

[Gentleman]

Hahahaha grace us with your presence soon Gentleman!?

I will do soon Jazzmine.

 

[Dallas]

And at this point let me add that while I was in the army and we were doing field operations where there was a lack of water for a few days, almost every single guy who was not circumcised developed some sort of infection as (no fault of his own) he was not able to properly wash everyday and keep his penis clean. None of the guys who were circumcised developed these problems.

I'm not sure how many other guys have been in my situation but I was not circumcised but had an issue as per the quote here, when I was in the Army and spent 3 weeks in the jungle up north, all the guys that weren't circumcised got infections - it was excruciatingly painful and the Army doctors when we got back - rightly or wrongly circumcised us all.

Man did that hurt! When you're an adult and your mini me is has stitches in it, you don't realise that during the night you have lots of erections and each time I had one I woke up in intense pain, and had to put an ice pack on the thing. I didn't sleep for two weeks until the stitches came off. I'm probably one of the few guys that can say they've had sex before and after a circumcision and at the time I didn't notice and difference, don't know if there's been less sensitivity as I've got older or if it's just the case of getting older but I can't say I'm bothered one way or the other.

 

[Happy2]

Dallas that story brings tears to he eyes

All three of them

But was it totally your decision to have the Op or was it just done. No real time to discuss it etc?

 

[homer]

Ouch Dallas, sorry to hear about your adventure. Lucky i havent had an episode like that, i love my hood. My hooded vigilante, he doesn't shoot arrow but squirt into that sucking black hole. Without the hood he is no one.

 

[HappyPirate]

Ahoy;- Yep I agree Big Ouchhhhhhhhhh I hope the Army gave you more Rum rashions for the Pain and I guessing yes there would not be Tooo many guys who have had;- sex before and after a circumcision.
Cheers and Pass the Rum, I need a really big drink after reading Dallas story.

 

[Dallas]

Thanks you guys, yes it sort of was my decision but it was rushed - typical Army I guess, I was in heaps of pain and had to make a decision on the spot - don't know to this day if I made the right one. But one good thing came of it, I got a new fan belt for the holden lol
I could have really done with a gallon of Rum HP!

 

[David_San]

sex for me was definitely better post circumcision. The stitches were a bit annoying but the medicine the surgeon gave me for the pain was suffice. after about 8-9 weeks I was back to normal.