Manufacturing trends that are disturbing to some.

[Master Yoda]

There is a trend that has been obvious but not overstated for some time now.* In the countries that are economically first world, a large volume of employment have been outsourced to countries of cheaper labour for a better return.* As mentioned before this has been happening for some time as businesses of all multitudes choose to do this to stay competitive.
*
My attention was shaken when I heard that Apple are now doing this.* Not known to me is that for some time how Apple’s products have been fully or partially made in China for some time now.* What I make this mean is that with the volume of their products manufactured (iPhones just to name one), there should be a lot of employment for the local residents citizens.* But an article I read points out that it’s not just the fact that the labor is cheaper in China, but the workforce as well as the environment is better in general and can meet the demands in many ways whereas countries like the USA and Australia are not able to.*
*
Now I’m not a fan of believing the media at face value.* I would love to hear the opinions and view of some members here.* Check out the article below:
*
Why Apple Doesn’t Make The iPhone In America | Gizmodo Australia

 

[Alecia the Foxx]

I do know this to be true.

Am not sure what you mean by the workforce and the environment being "better in general" though. Surely, if you accept that it is slave labour, the workforce cannot said to be "better" and neither can the environment. Are you able to clarify what you mean there?

 

[Master Yoda]

I do know this to be true.

Am not sure what you mean by the workforce and the environment being "better in general" though. Surely, if you accept that it is slave labour, the workforce cannot said to be "better" and neither can the environment. Are you able to clarify what you mean there?

Clarify I will……………..* I have no attachments to any opinions that anything in any one place than another. *It’s all relative somewhere along the way.* What got my attention is that the trend of off shore outsourcing for manufacturing products that carry iconic brand names of the countries that own them (or not) have been doing this for some time now.*
*
And now that the APPLE is doing it, they actually justify it by saying that it is not slave labor.* And that it is because of the better quality of service, speed at which key personnel can be sourced like qualified engineers, and the speed and quality at which tasks can be performed.* Also how sourcing materials can be done with minimal fuss.* The article I linked and other I have read all seems to explain it very logically.*
*
But thanks for your opinion.* Like I said, it’s nice to get the views from people who do not belong to the media.
*
Look forward to hearing more

 

[Demon]

That is called advancement.

Technology has done more than outsourcing.

Since 1999 the US has increased manufacturing output by 25% with no additional workers in manufacturing.

In 1900 about 40% of Aust population was working in agriculture. Now it is less than 2%. Why? Technology. Machinery and crops and husbandry and have all improved massively.

Manufacturing is developing world stuff, as we used to be.

 

[jaxonjorja]

I do know this to be true.

Am not sure what you mean by the workforce and the environment being "better in general" though. Surely, if you accept that it is slave labour, the workforce cannot said to be "better" and neither can the environment. Are you able to clarify what you mean there?

The article clearly points out that the workforce is better because in China they are able to locate & employ the 8700 industrial engineers and 200,000 assembly-line workers required to do the job. This number of employees could not be found so readily in USA. The working environment is better in general because all the infrastructure and access to parts & materials is close by. There is NO mention of slave labour in the article, only cheaper labour, which it also states is "less important to a company’s bottom line than supply chains are", which then goes back to infrastructure and access to parts & materials.
China is today one of the fastest growing economies in the world. It is a very forward moving, progressive country in the main, and technology and its use is absolutely everywhere. Australia at around 22million and USA at around 400million population, can't match it with China's multi billion population

 

[Farm Boy]

That is called advancement.

Technology has done more than outsourcing.

Since 1999 the US has increased manufacturing output by 25% with no additional workers in manufacturing.

In 1900 about 40% of Aust population was working in agriculture. Now it is less than 2%. Why? Technology. Machinery and crops and husbandry and have all improved massively.

Manufacturing is developing world stuff, as we used to be.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics" And I can demonstrate this Demon with agricultural enterprises 2012 for every person actually working on the land there is much unseen back up ie transport and earth moving contractors
advisers and consultants shearers bulk handlers machinery manufactures and many more none actually work on the land but with out them its

" DAD is the Clydesdale in foal , F*** know's Dave Mabel might have to pull the cart "

 

[jaxonjorja]

Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

Thank !@#$ it's not me in the firing line this time!!

 

[Fudd]

...google Foxconn, which is one of 2 major manufacturing outfits in China that make Apple products, and see if you would be prepared to work there.

 

[Master Yoda]

...google Foxconn, which is one of 2 major manufacturing outfits in China that make Apple products, and see if you would be prepared to work there.

The media seems pretty harsh on how they treat their workers. But by what and who's standards are they judging them?

These damning reports wouldn't have anything to do with Android manufacturers would they lol

 

[jaxonjorja]

I wouldn't be prepared to work there, mainly because manufacturing motherboards & "computer bits" doesn't interest me. Not to sure how these plants compare with others around the world.
I have, however done a lot of work in China and Mongolia, and have a fair idea of how the average "pleb" lives in these countries.

 

[Happy2]

The piece in the Sunday Times Was one of the worst because the bank has out sourced staff to India but are expecting the Aussie staff to teach the new staff before they
are let go

 

[Master Yoda]

The piece in the Sunday Times Was one of the worst because the bank has out sourced staff to India but are expecting the Aussie staff to teach the new staff before they
are let go

Wow, that’s a low one………………………….* I understand that as the business *world gets more competitive, business owners have to do what they can to increase their profit or in some cases just survive.* However in my experience, if this necessity is not balanced with integrity and a basic respect for people, the businesses seldomly last long.*
*
*

 

[Happy2]

Wow, that’s a low one………………………….* * However in my experience, if this necessity is not balanced with integrity and a basic respect for people, the businesses seldomly last long.*
*
*

Thing is Master Your experience here does not apply as we are talking Banks!!

 

[Master Yoda]

Thing is Master Your experience here does not apply as we are talking Banks!!

No arguement from me. What you say certainly seem to be the norm in the collective experience.

 

[Alecia the Foxx]

We could argue what the true meaning is of "slave labour" but the bottom line is that, as someone else pointed out, they are making iconic brands, making a killing on them, and paying the workers "cheaply." That is never right.

 

[Rochelle]

The manufacturing trends (production in "cheap" countries to maximise profit)have been around for at least the last twenty years........Bonds, Billabong, Apples (as we know now), Kathmandu, Call Centres, endless list......well.....the list of manufacturers who actually stayed in their country of origin is a lot shorter.
So, why the surprise with Apple??????? same sh*t different company.

R.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[jaxonjorja]

We could argue what the true meaning is of "slave labour" but the bottom line is that, as someone else pointed out, they are making iconic brands, making a killing on them, and paying the workers "cheaply." That is never right.

When I employ locals for my programs in Mongolia, I pay them AUS$100 for 3 weeks work. Slave labour??? In Australia, possibly. But in Mongolia, they jump at it and feel like they're being treated like a king / queen. If I paid them the same rates as I pay employees in Australia, then these Mongolian locals would be the equivalent of our multi millionaires. Any smart, progressive, forward thinking company will NOT pay their staff cheaply. They will pay them relative to the country they are in.
As you may have missed on my last post (as you've said I am on your ignore list), but should have read in the original article posted by Master Yoda, "cheaper labour, ... is less important to a company’s bottom line than supply chains are"
I have an iPhone - it's made in China
I have a Steinway grand piano - it's made in New York, USA
I drive a BMW - it's made in South Africa
Very few things these days are made in the original country of production. Such is life! Get used to it cause it isn't going to change anytime soon.

 

[Farm Boy]

And then there's the Carbon Tax.

Australia's $23-a-tonne carbon tax eclipses China's $1.55 tax. Similarly, Australia's tax will cover a majority of the private economy, while China's will cover mostly state-owned enterprises.

Equally, with no parallel to Europe's declining $10 carbon price, talk of a Chinese carbon tax provides little comfort to Australian households and businesses about to shoulder the world's largest carbon price. The pain will be even more acute if China's carbon tax makes it harder to lower the economic pain of an emissions trading scheme in the future.

 

[Alecia the Foxx]

The media seems pretty harsh on how they treat their workers. But by what and who's standards are they judging them?

These damning reports wouldn't have anything to do with Android manufacturers would they lol

True, we are judging them by Eurocentric or Amero-centric ideals. I would only be prepared to make a judgment if I spoke to the actual workers concerned.

 

[hungman1808]

I've seen these articles on Apple, and a few interesting observations from the readings come up.

Whilst the focus is on the "slave" wages of the factory workers, it was also interesting to note that an Industrial Engineer in China is earning as much as a USA based Apple engineer was in the mid 90s ($50,000 USD). They can afford a decent apartment (approx 90-100 sqm, bigger than many of the apartments on offer in the Perth CBD) and save a quarter of their salary. How many in the USA and Australia can live well and save a quarter of their salary in a large city?

In other words, the same medium to high skilled jobs once performed in the USA, are now done in China, with salaries *higher* compared to living costs than those previously available in the USA.

The lot of the unskilled worker (when compared to the West, and especially Australia) is highlighted. Whilst the engineer is earning $50,000, the unskilled factory worker is in the region of $3,000. Only in places like Australia, and maybe only in Australia (I don't have data to prove that right now) can the unskilled worker earn more than the high skilled people they rely on for their jobs (e.g commercial building construction labourer vs engineer salaries).

There have been rises of 20% per year in salaries for the unskilled worker in the manufacturing cities in China. They are currently still cheaper than robots. Once they aren't, the glass polisher and hand assembler will disappear from Chinese plants. Japanese manufacturers have been using robots in their Chinese factories for a good 20 years.

The additional labour cost of making an iPhone in the USA is $65 (according to the Apple articles). The cost of the supply chain, sourcing parts etc would be much higher. Hence why the manufacturing is now in China. A vast amount of the worlds manufacturing now comes out of a bunch of cities (soon to be made one super city of around 50 million) no further than 150km from Hong Kong.

The software, applications etc for the most part are still created in the USA. Electronic hardware (including computers) was always heading to low profit commodity status, while the software cost (due to the increased complexity) was going to go up and require a high skill base. The creativity and cultural understanding for this still resides in the USA.

The big question: if the West runs out of jobs (and hence disposable money) and the people making the goods in China/ Asia/ Africa can't afford to buy the stuff they make - who will?

 

[jaxonjorja]

Well said hungman1808. Sounds like a very expanded version of the point I obviously struggled to get across.
I agree with you completely. They get paid a lot less in Mongolia, but still definitely not "slave labour"

 

[svengali]

There is one thing which bugs me about the "booming' Chinese economy which is supposedly keeping us afloat.

When an economy is run on Socialist lines, ie centrally controlled, and all media are owned and controlled by the State just how reliable are the economic "facts" we are being given? All companies gild the lily a bit when preparing their annual reports but, in the past, Governments, particularly Communist/Socialist ones have raised this to an art form.

 

[Happy2]

There is one thing which bugs me about the "booming' Chinese economy which is supposedly keeping us afloat.

When an economy is run on Socialist lines, ie centrally controlled, and all media are owned and controlled by the State just how reliable are the economic "facts" we are being given? All companies gild the lily a bit when preparing their annual reports but, in the past, Governments, particularly Communist/Socialist ones have raised this to an art form.

Spot on svengali
And they will hide those figures even pull money from elsewhere to prop things
up They have a artificially low currency value so as to be the exporting powerhouse they are. One week of trading with a free market currency rate and they would be nett importers not exporters

 

[jaxonjorja]

Fair question svengali. One that I don't know the answer to. But having visited and worked in China (mostly Beijing) quite a lot over the last 3 - 4 years, you can see with your own eyes the development going on, the money being spent, the positive comments from locals, the smiles on their faces etc etc. Obviously this is not the case for all Chinese, and your eyes & ears can deceive you, but it does give a pretty good idea of the general rising trend in the Chinese economy.

 

[Saige]

LOVE THIS!!

I do not understand the ownership of jobs by people in developed countries who need jobs alot more than we do. We have an ok unemployment rate of which very good programs to get people back into work, they all may not be in an ideal job...but we MAJORITY live in nice homes, eat well, have access to education and medicine...and what we call poor and lower socio nomic is what many people in underdeveloped counties would dream of such luck!

So when we whinge and moan about our jobs been taken away (and yes there are familes who face unemployent, and suffer from this ABSOLUTELY sad but we have a land of plenty...and there are other opportunities are out there. Many of these countries it is live saving/country saving and the difference it makes to them is on a scale I think many of us could not or will not appreciate.

HOWEVER..companies, especially the welathy ones who go over there and abuse this are committing a corporate crime and should be severely dealt wth in the law system in there own country and that is when we speak with our pockets if we know a company to be one of them...DONT BUY IT!!

I really dont get the sepratist attitude the human race has..we are not one as humans and for the whole race but the tribe first..I guess it may be primal but it is a way of thinking that I feel only causes more negatives then positives!

 

[happytimes]

Yeah just like Gina Rinehart who just doubled her fortune with a deal done in China, i guess good luck to her.
I don't know much about this but makes me wonder where Australians will be in 30 to 40 years, maybe we will be the ones working for S.F.A.

 

[Saige]

When I employ locals for my programs in Mongolia, I pay them AUS$100 for 3 weeks work. Slave labour??? In Australia, possibly. But in Mongolia, they jump at it and feel like they're being treated like a king / queen. If I paid them the same rates as I pay employees in Australia, then these Mongolian locals would be the equivalent of our multi millionaires. Any smart, progressive, forward thinking company will NOT pay their staff cheaply. They will pay them relative to the country they are in.
As you may have missed on my last post (as you've said I am on your ignore list), but should have read in the original article posted by Master Yoda, "cheaper labour, ... is less important to a company’s bottom line than supply chains are"

I agree it has to be in line with the economy...and these large corporation should be pouring some of the "excess" recruitment budget they saved back into the communties...like what the mining companies "attempt" when the go into remote towns over here...sometimes they do it well and sometimes you think they got there degrees from a weeties packet and there assessment on what is money well spent in a community is RIDICULOUS... Like n the goldfields they spent I (or it may have been the council..) 100 of 1000's dollars on shower blocks at top end of town for the Indigenous fringe dwellers or the traditional bush Aboriginals and scoffed and moaned when they did not get used...ummm this is you putting your western ways on traditional people...Funny they never consulted them then called them ungrateful and wasitng tac payers money for not following there way.....its not rocket science people (I think i went off track a bit there....:laughing4)

I think too its just about corporate responsibility and also the governements in those countries not being scared to stand up to them out of fear losing them all together..

 

[Master Yoda]

I don't know much about this but makes me wonder where Australians will be in 30 to 40 years, maybe we will be the ones working for S.F.A.

This brief statement is easy to overlook. Yet it arouses chilling thoughts.

 

[Alecia the Foxx]

This brief statement is easy to overlook. Yet it arouses chilling thoughts.

Yes, I am afraid I tend to agree.

 

[JasRob]

Yes outsourcing has been a trend for decades now.. And I wouldn't wonder companies such as Apple to do the same thing... Big companies now don't really think about humanity and helping their own country, they are looking for ways to make more money, well that's what every company does. I wouldn't wonder if the next couple of years everything we have here in our country will be outsourced...This boils down to the advancement of technology...